Steven Homestead is an artist, poet, composer, and collaborator. He structures his work around his life and art — often keeping them as separate parallel streams.
Steven is also one of my oldest friends, so I’ve been able to witness his intentional choices over the years in what he pursues and does next.
We discuss how he approaches creative projects, work, and the relationship between the two.
I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and hope that you will as well.
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In this episode you’ll learn:
- What Steven does
- How he uses his creativity to develop projects
- Where he finds inspiration for his projects
- How does he decide what to pursue next?
- How he defines a “good job”
- How to free up space for your creativity
- How he defines purpose and calling in what he does
- How he meets people for collaborations
- How he balances art and making a living
Software Generated Transcription:
Steven, welcome to the meaning of a podcast. I’m just so excited to have you here with me. Thanks so much for jumping in.
Sure Dan, it’s awesome to be honest with you and have some good conversation.
Yeah, the question I like to begin with is how do you begin to talk about the work that you do in the world?
That’s such a cool question. I think for me it’s linked to being in the moment.
I tend to answer questions from people about work or vocation or what I am up to depending on the situation or who they are or what I’m up to.
So it’s kind of like this from triangulation of connections.
Yeah. So let’s talk about some of the pieces of the triangle.
I just kind of thinking about back in the day of being in person at like an art gallery opening and like talking to someone about their art. I would probably lead with.
An art project I’m working on or what I’m doing in a creative community, if I was in like a business meeting for that job that I had, that was like full time data visualization, I probably talk about a particular client I was working with, you know, talking about it in less of a and less of a kind of like a through line, kind of like defining a like a clear. This is what I do as just kind of instead of me holding onto it as this never unchanging description. For myself, it’s different.
I hold a lot of different ways that I engage with the work that I do.
I guess what came to mind is you’re talking about maybe a better question and is for you is not what do I do but what am I doing.
It might be a way to say that.
What are some of the descriptors as far as we’ve already talked about data visualization about your art.
I know, because full disclosure for listeners, Stephen and I go way, way back is one of my oldest and dearest friends.
And so we have a lot of context here for this conversation.
But some of the words that I know I would use to describe in your work, Stephen, is, you know, artists. You talked about data visualization, which I think is really fascinating, kind of intersection of art and business. You’re a musician.
You write poetry like what are some of the words that you would put to what you like to create in the world?
What’s the list?
Yeah, the list.
My work comes out of creative background or a creative bent, and I pursue things that I’m fascinated by, regardless of what’s making me my living in an art gallery.
You’ll often have like a show description or a little placard next to an art piece. And so there’s ways from that world, even though I didn’t go to school for visual art, I’m active in that world or even on the side of music composition. You often have to describe the piece of music and like a program or something like that. Yeah, in the kind of quote unquote classical tradition. And I think coming up with descriptions for what I’ve created also helped me to hone descriptions for kind of like my mission.
Mm. Yeah. And so I found that as I developed in my career, as I just walked through my life, there were some themes that I kept seeing and they had to do with unity, giving voice like the idea of wonder, inviting people into wonder hospitality and making space. And over time I continued to kind of like home that that kind of sense of self. And I see that it both influences and grows out of what I do.
Mhm. Yeah. I love how you said, like the writing, the descriptions of your work because giving you words for your work and I find that to be true for all of us in the space of like as we give the work of finding the language for something that shapes the way that we think about it.
The more that we do that, the more I don’t know, I guess it makes it so, so it can take these abstract words like calling and purpose and meaning, these big kind of sometimes heavy for some people, sometimes loaded words and starts to kind of break them down and make them something that you can you can kind of play with.
And it sounds like you’ve done a lot of that work to come up with these themes. How do these themes express themselves like so knowing that unity and giving voice, creating wonder or hospitality, all these things that you’re talking about, how does that come out?
Like what do what you do next?
I’m thinking about giving some more granular examples because I feel like a lot of I mean, those are pretty heady things are kind of like highmore things. And so it might be fun to just talk about some projects.
Yeah, I think I think that would be helpful because I’m sure people are listening like, OK, well, like what is he actually doing?
I joined a community of artists known as Saddleback Visual Arts as a volunteer. It’s a group of creatives, a part of my faith community. And I found that being in the company of other creatives actively making was an important thing for me talking and community kind of hashing out I. Has helped helped me shape a little bit of where I took my own creativity and it led me to engage in community based art projects, some artists, some creatives make things that are very individual.
A photographer will take an individual image or a painter will make an individual painting. And I do some work like that. But I found that by being in this group of people, I wanted to work alongside of them and involve them. And also bring it to people who aren’t a part of our community, so there’s a city in Orange County, California, called Santa Ana, which has an art scene, and they have an art walk on Saturday nights, the first of the month, the first Saturday of the month.
And I’ve had the opportunity to develop some projects to bring into that art walk so that people who are just walking around, checking out the galleries could participate in the work. So it would be, for instance, a project, like I call it, with my friend Claire and Jason, where we had a group of doors that artists would paint so each artist could represent what they wanted to on their door. Set up in this kind of like like wall of doors, but then I had the idea that the community could come up and write a word or draw a picture on a door so that they could leave their mark and then step through it, kind of like over this threshold into into what their intention was or desire was.
So that kind of thought of giving people a participatory experience rather than just watching someone paint but actually get involved and make their own mark. That’s an example of sharing that wonder, like walk through that door. Was a very profound experience for some people after they wrote down what they wanted. Yeah. And it’s great to watch people paint. We love Bob Ross for a reason because it’s fascinating stuff come alive.
And so there was that component where people could watch the artist create the image on their door, but giving them that, that. That. Sense of honor, like we want to honor you as a person who’s participating in this, so that’s one of those examples from my art practice that touches on that sense of hospitality. Tatian and wonder. And it’s kind of unifying in a way, because everyone’s everyone’s writing on the same door for that munity portion.
So it’s kind of like collecting people’s stories in one word or people’s hopes or dreams and not editing them out. Just put up what they want.
I love it.
I love it. How do you decide what to pursue next? Like, where does your inspiration for this project versus that project come from?
It’s based on relationships. So being in that community of artists opened the door to creating visual arts kind of art experiences. Mm hmm. This is years ago.
Maybe eight or nine years ago at this point, I had wrapped up grad school for music composition and at that point I was kind of burnt out. I had just poured a lot of myself into creating on the musical side of things. And so I took a break from that and started to create visuals and art, art pieces and interactive art projects. It was from that that I took steps forward and met people who opened doors or who gave me connections, and we created new collaborations.
And so it was through some of those friendships and relationships that I ended up at.
A creative evening, there were just a few hundred people listening to this guy talk about making paper art. And there was this gentleman there who in a time of networking, saying he was looking for data visualization people for his company, he called them data visualization artists. And I thought, well, I’ve been working in art. Let me just go talk to this guy.
And that opened the door to working in data visualization, which I wouldn’t have got into without connecting with these people in this arts community. So it in a way feels organic when I look back on it. Yeah. Yeah.
Kind of looking around it. Who I already know or even what’s inspiring me. Kind of like following those little sparks or those little breadcrumbs.
Mm hmm. Yeah. It sounds very collaborative in your approach. Mm hmm. Yeah. You and I both studied music back in the day about thinking about the ways in which sometimes music is taught, where you write something and you hope someone performs it.
Instead of collaborating with the performer to create something that has meaning to them. Because then there’s that relationship.
Yeah, I love that, and I think that that’s something I always struggled with about music, like I never in my own writing. And one of the reasons why I really haven’t written that much since college, since undergrad is that piece of like, why am I doing this? If I’m not if I don’t have an outlet, like if I’m just writing it just for it to be written is not very meaningful for me. But then if someone’s like hey, would you write this for me, all of a sudden it takes on or with me it takes on a whole new dimensionality that’s missing for me when it’s just me.
Yeah. I mean, we wish we could retitle this podcast episode two former composers.
Yes. Well, what if who doesn’t write at all anymore and the other who is doing all kinds of other artistic endeavors?
I love it. I love it.
I’m curious about just the piece. So you kind of connected to some of the dots that through your just pursuit of community around art was what got you into data visualization.
You mentioned earlier just about the note.
This is the way that I put it in my notes here, which isn’t exactly how you said it, but like a separation between the things that you’re fascinated by and pursuing artistically and a separation between that and how you make your living.
And I’m curious, just maybe I guess there’s not really much of a question here, maybe just the entry point into how do you think about work as a, you know, the necessary source of income to pay bills and everything like that and meaning and purpose and a lot of these other things that you get primarily from your art.
Not to say that there isn’t an intersection there at times, but I think I just want to hear you talk about those two sides of the work coin, if you will.
Yeah. On the creative side of things, there’s a particular aspect of my personality that I think can be unhelpful for artists, and that’s a lack of interest to make a living as a creative or to make money off of my art or my music. So that’s a unique thing to me.
I know other people who write music, who write books, who paint, who do photography, and it’s honorable that they want to use that to make money and create kind of like their their financial pad, if you will, kind of like what gives them their their solidity for their their life from financial perspective. But for some reason it’s just not part of my personality. And that job as a data visualization artist was interesting for me because. When I took that job.
I realized I was becoming my own arts patron. I was making a salary instead of working as a freelancer and doing a lot of hustling to get projects and commissions and different things. So that freed me up to focus on my creative interests outside of work in a way that I didn’t have to put pressure on them to make me money. That’s just one way of going about it. And it’s a way that worked for me in that season.
The nice thing about it was the job had enough that job as a data visualization artist had enough about it. That kept me interested. That worked for me.
And so that job I had had last year and the year before, before the covid pandemic, and it really it was kind of like for that period, a sweet spot.
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I love that it resonate in many ways. I love that you said you became your own patron.
And how about that freed up space? I guess you didn’t have to worry about the income piece or selling. You’re selling your art or getting commissions or whatever, whatever might be. And in some ways, it really reminds me of just the process a lot of people go through in searching for purpose and meaning in their work.
A lot of times when I first start talking with people and people reach out to me, find the podcast or the blog, they’re in a place where they don’t have any space. And so even when I can talk about art and creativity, but just space for their voice and their job, that is just really sucking the life out of them. And the thing that I was and, you know, telling people is like the first thing you need to do is get yourself a new job, not the perfect job, not the dream job, but just a job that takes care of your basic needs so that then you can start creating some space to even start thinking about who you are and what you want.
It sounds similar to that in some ways, like by having this job that it’s a good job and checked some boxes. It was interesting, interesting enough, I think you said it, which I think is great, like an interesting enough job to keep you engaged and then outside of the job gave you the freedom to really lean in and add to your creative pursuits.
It sounds like a great template or example maybe for people.
Yeah, I think that one idea that’s coming to my mind right now is, there are different aspects of a job that can make it meaningful life giving or that can make a job kind of be draining or taxing or stressful. And before I worked for the market research company doing that data visualization, I was working part time at a community college as part of their research department and their grants department. And there were some tasks that I was doing on the data side of things that needed to be done.
And they were really boring for me, really boring for me, like filling out spreadsheets with all these different, like transfer locations. And there was one one day at work, I was literally falling asleep doing the data entry because it was so boring, so boring.
And I created this game where the computer was trying to cast evil spells on me to make me sleep. And I was like, this night that had to fight it.
Yeah. So it wasn’t a bad thing to do. It was just kind of for me with a spreadsheet, just loading the data and really, really boring at that moment. But I like the people I worked with. I like the community. I was a part of the college. The college itself was about empowering students to find their career and to progress forward in life. So that’s all good thinking about where I could focus. I could focus on that one boring project.
Or I could kind of like. Fight that evil spell in the moment to get out of the larger story of the I’m working for a college, students afford online education and they’re going to transfer on.
And I think about moving from that position to the next one. There were certain aspects of it that I didn’t like and other aspects that I did. So kind of like refocusing and reframing towards those to kind of help them make that job meaningful.
I love it. I love it.
And very much in line with a lot of the conversations we have here on the podcast, I’d like it’s rare that a job checks all the boxes of being like this is a perfect expression of me in the realm of work. But a good job can be an expression, a place, a channel through which, you know, you get to do something that’s meaningful for you.
And I often talk about what I call the four P’s. I feel like I talk about this in every episode, but as for different places in work that I find for my research and all these conversations that I have with people where you find meaning in the work, which is in the process of actually doing the work. So for some artists, it might be him being in the studio, making the art in the people that you’re doing it for or with or to the product, which is, you know, the end goal of the organization or whatever the work is.
In that example, the college that’s making a good impact on the world, not people. And then finally profit, which is that doing something gives you back something.
It pays the bills and gives you health care. It puts food on the table or whatever it might be.
A good job is going to go check some of those boxes or if you’re going to score those, you know, score those from zero to 10, you’re going to have a couple of those categories that are in the you know, the the five or above for it to be a good, you know, a good job where you feel engaged and you feel you’re satisfied with that work. I think the mistake that we often make is that we think that it’s got to be the perfect job.
It’s got to be tense all the way down, which, you know, I hope I hope for all of us that we can continue to to hone our work and, you know, move in that direction.
But the reality is that there’s always competing priorities and sacrifices that need to be made along the way. So what you’re saying just really resonates with my framework of thinking about all of this stuff?
Yeah, I like those process people, product profit. I had my words one time. I wish I could remember it. It was from a number of years ago. But I think you and I think alike in some of those categories. Yeah, well, we’ve probably spent a lot of time processing them together, so I’m sure there’s some cross pollination there on. I’m curious, how do you think about the word like calling and purpose in your work, whether that’s how you define them or just want to hear you talk about them calling it a purpose?
In my work, I feel like calling is something that’s external. So for me, it’s like I’m called to something outside of myself. Calling, and I think of that in terms of like vocation with the word vocation comes from the Latin, like Voges or something like that for voice. So I like that idea because it has to do with relationships. Yeah. And if people can’t tell by listening to me talk, there’s an importance to relationships and how I go about finding what’s next or creating projects.
So it’s a compelling word. I think that it kind of touches back on to the kind of looking at what I’ve done, kind of some of the processes or people or products or like if I mean, if I’m mapping your work for onto like my past work, it’s kind of going back to those show statements or those musical composition paragraphs that are kind of talking about what I’ve done or are who I am like an artist bio. So I think taking what you just said and kind of like bringing that to kind of analysis of one’s selves can help reveal calling.
I think there’s a line in my bio that I’ve developed over time and it’s really helped me.
And so I work to promote honor, give voice, share, wonder and develop unity. So those four things like honed down, help, help remind me of what I’m called to, but it also touches on purpose. So like the purpose is kind of like the outcome for me, like the purpose of my work, the purpose of what I do for me is. To. Does someone feel honored, has someone been given a voice where they haven’t had it before?
Did someone share an experience of wonder, hmm, do we feel more unified after this? And those are pretty lofty things. And I think those are elements of my creative work that sometimes will transcend how I’m making my money or a day to day tasks.
Yeah, yeah. I love it. I love it. And it feels like it’s almost like these words have emerged out of your reflection over your work. And it’s not like you necessarily intentionally think, OK, how can I give voice today or whatever the case, but like things that continually come back to you. So I guess it’s I guess what I’m saying is that it sounds like they both guide you moving forward and also have come out of your, you know, reflection on on where you’ve been in your past, which sounds like it’s just really good, grounded words for your for your work in the world.
And it didn’t dawn on me for a while to kind of come up with almost like a purpose statement or a mission.
And I’m thinking this might be a good, good spot to just kind of give some bullet point timeline of her career has progressed. I’d love that.
Maybe it helped a lot a lot earlier, but so growing up, I wanted to be a composer. And so I went to school for music composition and I got a bachelor and a masters degree in it. And then after that, I started working for a nonprofit in the world of music composition. So there was a link there, graduated and started doing grant writing for what was called the American Composers Form of Los Angeles.
And so that grant writing position led me to do grant writing for a number of non-profits, which led me to the community college, doing grant writing in that world. I also got thrown into institutional research to support the grants and that kind of like piece of the puzzle of research then coupled with doing visual arts after grad school combined to go into data visualization. So that’s that’s one kind of like picturing it like streams converging. Yeah. And. So if I’m looking at that in the world of grant writing, I’m giving voice to the project that I’m writing a grant for or to the nonprofit.
If I’m engaging people in an art project like that, that example of that Dore’s art project, how can I invite them in so that they’re honored as a creative or that they feel like they have a voice in the art project? And I think over the last year, I have also noticed the importance for me to be a listener. Listening isn’t part of that list. But to listen, I think is an important kind of like side. If a coin has two sides and giving voice on the other side of that is listening.
And when the pandemic hit in twenty twenty and things started to go into lockdown and shelter in place, things I was actually developing a song or a piece of music for violin and I stopped. I felt like my creative energy shifted because of where the world was going to go into kind of like digital connection and yeah, not wanting to put a ton of energy into my music, which is from the classical tradition and heard in like a concert space.
And I shifted towards poetry and I realized that was partially to do with listening. I felt like it was really important to listen during the pandemic. And yeah. And poetry to me is about listening or from a visual perspective, paying attention. Those are kind of like two similar things. And so thinking about thinking about that and how it connects into some of some of. My purpose statement or my mission for myself and talking about the data points of my work, kind of like sharing just a moment ago about how I ended up in grant writing and data visualization.
Now I’m working to curate a literary festival, which is going to happen the first weekend of March in twenty twenty one that I wouldn’t have gotten if I hadn’t paid attention to that kind of like call to listen. I felt like they were calling towards me to like listen and then respond to that with poetry. And then that coupled with this idea of giving voice to myself, like I want to give myself a voice for this poetry I’m writing. I’m going to do some Zoome based poetry readings, invite some friends in to give voice to their poetry and just do a few of those people.
People notice that. And I was invited to be a guest curator for the literary festival, which. That’s just an example of that kind of relational connection and kind of like pursuing that some of those things that are a part of my work that I just know are a part of my work.
Well, I love how just by it feels like just by your being open to being receptive to the things that, you know, listening and responding to the things that you’re feeling, hearing like that. It seems like opportunities door’s open.
I’m sure it’s not not as easy and magical as it may sound at first.
You know, like Mike doesn’t it’s not it’s not like you’re not actually doing active work but to make these opportunities. But what I’m saying is, like, it’s really neat to see how you responded to that. You made, you know, started creating space for poetry. And then out of that came some opportunity for you to be involved in, you know, poetry at a higher or bigger, you know, in a bigger way. And that’s just really neat to see that kind of this.
It’s like you take a step towards something and then the universe responds and opens doors.
It makes me think of the whole theme of your podcast, the meaning movement. I find that I I might be in a different position because of my. Art practice and music practice then then someone that is an entrepreneur looking to create like a new app or a product. But the similarity, I think, is that there’s meaning. So, yeah, for me, I’m moving forward towards that meaning or moving to create that meaning. And so thinking about people that are perhaps where I am now, I was for my job and eventually let go.
So I’m entering into twenty, twenty one without a clear path without like oh yeah, this is my job, this is where I’m going to show up and this is what I’m going to do moving forward in that meaning. So in this case, those poetry readings gave me some contract work to create this literary festival. Yeah. In fact, I just watched the movie Finding Dory for the first time and there’s good principles in there.
There’s a really amazing scene where this very forgetful fish is analyzing how she can move forward and kind of like taking in her surroundings, kind of focusing on her own strengths and quieting herself to kind of listen like, OK, what is next? Yeah. So whether it’s whether it’s from the pandemic or just a decision to leave a job because it’s not giving you life and you know, it’s time to move on.
Those things, that kind of listening, looking where you’ve had meaning before, looking for the relationships that might generate some connection for the future is like a good step. It kind of reminds me of, Dan, your email invitation in the beginning of this year, kind of like a self assessment that you sent out. And that’s not something that we have to only save for January. We can approach that type of thinking at any point.
Which was an invitation to do an end of year review and think about where you were, you were where you’ve been over the last year.
But yeah, it’s not something that should only happen at or can only happen at the change of a calendar year, but really at any point. Yeah, I love that.
I think before we even hit record, we were talking about just different directions that we could go in this conversation. One of the things that I said is that I one of things I really admire about you and love about you, Stephen, is how committed you are to making space for your art.
And that even in this conversation that has taken you know, we’re over a half hour, beyond a half hour into this conversation. And we’re just now talking about the point that, you know, you lost your job and and you know that you’re not sure what’s what’s next. You know, what’s next for you in that regard. And I just think it’s, again, just like a really great example of, like, how it feels like, you know, where you’re going, you know, that you’re going to keep creating and and you’ll find a way to find the work to support your art.
But I just really admire your I don’t know, maybe it’s confidence, maybe it’s just your experience that you’ve been here before and you’ll you’ll figure it out, but it’s. Yeah, I just find it admirable.
There’s a mental image that came to my mind in a conversation with one of my kind of artist friends that I was reminded of as you were as you were just kind of reflecting back to me. Some of where I am right now is this kind of like image of me having threads come into my being and then like walking forward and my being is the thing that weaves them into kind of like a thread or a strand or a tapestry.
And so think like, well, I know the threads that are good for me to follow. It doesn’t mean I’m not open to new things. But like, I know that I’m a creative person. I know that I like working collaboratively. So making steps forward towards those things. Kind of like trusting that the life that I leave behind me will be woven by that walking forward. So one of my themes for this year is walking with. And so just making sure that I’m walking forward and not stopping too long.
And the nice thing about walking is that it’s slow, it takes into consideration capacity. So it’s not like this rushing forward and kind of like ignoring that kind of self assessment we were just talking about. But, yeah, kind of like moving forward towards those threads that are important to me.
Hmm. Yeah, I love that. I love that image. It’s very cool.
Make a great painting. I’d love to see someone bring that to life. I think it’d be really, really beautiful. Yeah. I think it’s a good place just to ask, even as you’re reflecting on being at this place of, you know, maybe a little bit of limbo. I know that people are listening.
A lot of people tune into the show because they’re contemplating some sort of transition.
They’re in a transition or they know a transition is imminent. And especially, you know, with the pandemic, as we’ve already mentioned, there’s more and more people at this moment are, you know, laid off, furloughed or in between work. It was a lot of anxiety that can come with that, a lot of feeling of being uncertain for the future or even feeling stuck and uncertain of where to go. I’m curious if you have any words of wisdom, thoughts to offer people who might be in one of those categories?
Yeah, I think that they’ve been woven through our conversation, but kind of like highlighted them again. I think it would be fun if people haven’t written a bio for themselves, that might be a fun practice. Try writing a bio for yourself, but like not from maybe not from a place of like what you used to do for work, but just like what if, like, trying on a different voice, like if I was an artist and I was I was putting on a show at the Met in New York, what might I write about myself?
Or if I was working with an NGO to do foreign development in Guyana, what might I write about myself. So kind of like practice. Just kind of like putting on a different hat to write about yourself and see what comes up is fun. I love that. I just did a creative calling course through my church. And there’s a creative DNA exercise that we do that I’d love to share with people where you list out things that you’re passionate about or things that are meaningful.
And there’s a difference. There are a few different ways to kind of navigate the data that that brings up, like the passion data, the what awakes in to you, what makes you feel alive. So it was really fun to go through that with the 20 people. We call it the creative calling course. And that was one of our exercises, the creative DNA, and to listen to people and then to respond back to them.
That was a helpful thing. Yeah. In this creative concourse weren’t necessarily in transition, but I think that would be a really good thing to do in transition. Yeah, yeah. And just in general, talking with people who know you just to kind of get there, how they respond to their advice.
I love it. If there’s a way that you could share that, you know, whether it’s a PDF or a document or. I don’t know. I don’t know. What if you have thoughts, we can talk more after we finish wrapping up here. But I’d love to link up to that in the show notes or anyone who is interested in learning more about a process, a process like that.
Yeah, that’ll be great. Well, just as we move towards wrapping up, if people are interested in learning more about you, following along with your creative pursuits, are there any action steps that you’d like to invite people to?
I love meeting new people over the pandemic. I’ve met a number of people through Zoom’s and have created some friendships or even Instagram friendships. So feel free to reach out to me through Instagram. It’s at Scooba, homie, or my website. You can email me or follow me through my links on the Connect page of my website. And if you’re interested in checking out some of my curatorial work, the literary festival I’ve been curating is happening the first weekend of March twenty twenty one, and that’s called Bokha, the mouth of Gold.
And I’ll be doing a workshop on poetry and technology and also one on unity is not a destination.
It’s work. There’s also two sessions that I think might be interesting to your listeners. One is called Nail That Nesh. So it’s about finding your niche as a creative and the other is for anyone who’s interested in writing. It’s called Publish An Author’s Tool Kit to writers who are sharing a workshop on how to find what Publishing Avenue is best based on your author or writer personality type. So those are two that I think are entrepreneurs kind of track of the literary festival.
I love it. I’ll make sure to have links in the show. No to everything on your Instagram, your website, as well as the bookstore or the festival as well.
Thank you so much for coming along on this journey with me, Stephen. Thanks for all your friendship over the years. It’s just really fun to connect with you in this way and dig into some of these themes in your life and your work.
Thanks, Dan. It was really awesome to talk with you, and I look forward to connecting with anyone from your community. And, yeah, continuing our conversation just in general as friends.
I love it. I love it. Thanks so much, Stephen.